Joaquin Phoenix - No Bullsh-t

Joaquin Phoenix is a real-life anti-hero, an incessant smoker whose talent is beyond measure, and whose impact on moviemaking is presently peered only on lists that include Christian Bale, Russell Crowe and Ryan Gosling. There is also a mystery that shrouds Phoenix that he deftly disarms by claiming a nonchalant attitude to the industry in which he makes his mark, and we respect his right to be reserved only because we've grown up with his hurt rather than his less-reported sense of sardonic humor.

Whether he's considered brash or bashful is neither here nor there, for what truly affects us is his work - the manipulated teen in To Die For, the pained prince robbed of his status in Gladiator and, of course, his soul-baring embodiment of Johnny Cash in Walk the Line, a much-lauded role that seemed to bleed Phoenix wet for a time and in which he delved so deeply as to require a dose of detox.

This fall, we're treated to two Phoenician performances. The first, in Reservation Road, lands Phoenix in the part of Ethan Learner, a professor whose prodigal son is struck down and killed by a hit-and-run driver. The incident prompts Phoenix's character to relentlessly pursue a faceless perpetrator (portrayed by Mark Ruffalo). The second, as New York nightclub manager Bobby Green in We Own the Night - a mob story acquired by Columbia Pictures after its Festival de Cannes premiere (and released with 2929 Productions) - reunites Phoenix with the director of The Yards, James Grey, and with Phoenix's co-star from that award-winning outing, Mark Wahlberg.

Caught freshly unshaved the morning before the premiere of Reservation Road at the Toronto International Film Festival, Joaquin seems to enjoy a friendly self-deprecating joust with a journalist who may just think that Phoenix invests more into his work than the actor readily admits, and for whom Phoenix's work demands acclaim regardless of whether such accolades burden the actor with a not-so-quiet discomfort.

MPM: Let's start with Reservation Road. So, how did you begin to inhabit this role of Ethan Learner? Did you have the choice of portraying Dwight Arno, the role Mark Ruffalo took on?
Phoenix: I did. I was very fortunate. Usually, I am cast kind of last-minute, as a last-ditch kind of desperate attempt to get somebody because the other actors, the talented ones, are, you know, busy. And somehow, this one I got first, which is an indication that it was a very, very bad script.

But I think somehow it just had slipped through the cracks, and that was very fortunate. So yeah, I was one of the first involved, and I'm accustomed to being last. But I don't think that I - to inhabit the role, I don't even know what the hell that means, to inhabit the role.

I mean, actors show up. They have these big marks on the floor where you're supposed to stand. They have stuff written in advance. You don't even have to remember it. You can have somebody yell it to you. It's a piece of cake. There's no inhabiting. You actually don't have to really do anything except what's right in front of you. It's the greatest job in the world!

MPM: Did you read the novel or did you come in when the script was ready?
Phoenix: I have the book. But I read the script first, and then, as it sort of went through all these changes, I stopped - I only read half of it. I only read the parts that I was in.

MPM: Which is a lot of it if you didn't know which role you were gonna play.
Phoenix: That was the first time, but once Mark and I were cast and Terry [George] started working on the script, from that point on, I never read anything that Mark's character was gonna do, which I justify as, "I don't really want to know his experience. I don't want to understand what he's going through." The truth is I was just lazy and was looking to read 60 pages instead of a 120.

MPM: That's what Terry said.
Phoenix: Well, he knew it right away! He knew that well in advance.

MPM: He'd worked with you before on Hotel Rwanda. Is it cool working with a director a second time? I know you've gotten to work with James Gray a couple of times now, and M. Night Shayamalan.
Phoenix: I don't really like it. I don't think it's ideal because I think it's that much harder to convince people the second time. When you become good friends with somebody, then you can start telling when they're being false about something or when they're being overtly enthusiastic, or just trying to impress, and you kind of go like, "Oh! That's not you! What are you doing?"

But if you don't know the person, you've got no frame of reference [if] you go, "Oh, that's pretty good." So that first time you work with somebody, you can get away with all sorts of f-cking sh-t because they don't know you; but now you've worked together, it's like, "Oh please! You're totally bullsh-tting! I can tell that you're not in this at all!" So it's interesting, you know.

And, as always, it's nice to have a good relationship with the writer so you can try and ensure you have good lines and more than the other actors, which is my big need. My biggest note to Terry when we work together is, "Just as long as I have more dialogue than anyone else, I'm fine."

It actually became a joke, because I was constantly trying to cut out my lines. Terry came to me one day, and he's, like, "I've got some bad news." I said, "What's the matter?" He goes, "We're losing this scene... the wake." It was this little scene where I have this monologue to a friend, and I was actually like, "Oh, thank God!" And Jennifer said, "What are you talking about?" "I'm trying to, you know, lose as much dialogue as possible."

MPM: Was that a character choice, though, or just personal?
Phoenix: No, that's just a personal choice. I'd never make any choices for the character. It's all personal.

MPM: I loved the one-on-one scenes in this film - between you and Mark, between you and Jennifer Connelly - there was a quiet intensity that was building. Is that part of the thrill for you in being an actor - those one-on-one moments with other great actors?
Phoenix: No. I mean, I most like it when I'm alone in the room. When it's just me and the camera, just dancing with each other, holding each other... [He drops the sarcasm]I mean, it certainly is one of the things that you love. It's great to discover something with someone else and to react to that, and for it to be different or for people to surprise you in a scene. That is wonderful.

MPM: Like that moment where it's just you and Mark with your mind games: You bring him to the scene where your son was struck by his car, and you have that suspicion that he was the driver, and the audience has that knowledge, but Mark's character isn't aware yet...
Phoenix: That scene in particular was just fucking miserable to shoot. Because the thing is, you know - and I haven't seen the movie; it may be a good scene - but you're there, and just off-frame are, like, cops who are holding back traffic, and then there's, like, a few Guatemalan tourists who are taking your picture, and you're sick from the local dining, sh-t like that. So you're trying to get rid of sh-t like that from your f-cking head, and you're trying to make this make sense, and... I don't think you ever - I've never had the experience of being in the midst of a scene going, "Oh man! We're doing it! We're living. I'm feeling it."

I remember the one time that I was, like, "I found it! I found it! I got it." It's literally the worst thing in the world. For some reason, the moment that you lock on, that you feel like you know something or that you're working on the "experiences with an actor" - "We're going through this" - it all goes to shit from the moment you're kind of aware of that. I don't have the ability to, like, to be objective, you know, when I'm working. I don't know; I'm just kind of experiencing it, I suppose?

MPM: What's it like working with a kid like Elle Fanning, who seems so aware and vulnerable and understanding?
Phoenix: Just fuels envy, rage; I'm very tired of being set up by this girl. [Again turns off the sarcasm] No, it's amazing. You know, she has what we all want. You know? She has what you're trying to give her and the ability just to be in the moment and to react.

It's a beautiful thing to witness somebody experiencing that, you know, where from take to take she, literally - it just depended on what was happening around her. There's one take where she seems in shock, and then the next take she's balling her eyes out because Jennifer suddenly starts crying. And she's just completely reacting to what's happening in the room, and it's extraordinary. And that's all that you want.

MPM: The cool thing also is that even though it's set in a preppy East Coast environment, it doesn't lose its context in the world: There are incidents with an Arab diplomat, discussions in Ethan's classroom between students of different races... There's been a lot of press commenting on how it feels we're returning to filmmaking sensitivities of the '70s...
Phoenix: It's about f-cking time, isn't it?

MPM: Does that make it a more exciting time to be an actor?
Phoenix: Absolutely. I wonder whether there's always the relevant equivalent. You know what I mean? I don't know because I don't watch all the movies, but I think it's undeniable [that] we're seeing the effects of war and of the U.S.'s policies, and we're seeing that bleed into film and into all expression and all art. It's unbelievable. It's a weird thing to say, because it's a shame that it should take that.

I was thinking about that recently. I was thinking about the '60s and '70s... Those m-f-ckers were unbelievable. I mean, they had the greatest music in this period, the greatest films, and then what happens? You know? And it's an awful - I'd rather just be in crap movies than it require the death of thousands of innocent people in order to make art interesting, you know, if it's one or the other.

MPM: Sir Ben Kingsley has said if you choose your roles carefully, you can speak to your political and moral beliefs without actually saying anything publicly as a person. Do you agree with that statement?
Phoenix: I don't know. If I had access to the English language, I'm sure I'd be much more vocal about a number of things, but I'm still very much in my infancy, so that's what prevents me from talking. But I suppose that can be the case.

MPM: Is the L.A.-based charity The Art of Elysium [which sends artists of various expressions to children's hospitals] something that you get involved with because you believe in that particular cause, or is the charity's founder Jennifer Howell just a hard person to say "no" to?
Phoenix: First of all, let's just say for argument's sake that if I thought Jennifer Howell was hard to say "no" to, do you think that I'd actually - at what point, actually, would I admit that, first of all? But no; honestly, it's amazing. I've seen the affects of the program.

I was there, you know. I went to a hospital out in the Valley when it was the first time that Jennifer had gone down there, and over the course of a month saw the change. And it's pretty amazing. So that's why I'm involved.

MPM: With We Own the Night being at Cannes and Reservation Road here at Toronto, do you have any particular feeling about the festival circuit and what it does in terms of helping out films?
Phoenix: No, I have no idea. I know nothing about the business at all. I really don't. I'm not a film person. It's a terrible thing to say because, I mean, you spend a lot of time and you see films you probably care about. So I'm sorry, I apologize, [but] I haven't a clue. I'm sure that they do. It just seems like they would, right?

MPM: Toronto is now known as being somewhat of a launching pad for Oscar campaigns. Do you pay attention to that side of it all?
Phoenix: Well, look man... There's the truth and then there's the politically savvy thing to say, and I'm prone to tell you the truth. Just: Those kinds of things are helpful if you want to keep making movies, and that's about all they're worth.

I mean, I think that the very simple fact is accolades are actually translated into currency. And that's really all that it's about. Occasionally, there's something where you feel like it's an honor. It's weird... but then I think about other people. Like, I think about Casey Affleck, and - Did you see his film?

MPM: I haven't seen Jesse James, but I saw Gone, Baby, Gone.
Phoenix: I've heard it's amazing. I haven't seen it yet, but I know how hard he worked in prepping for Jesse James. I love hearing that my friend's work - that people are responding to it, you know; that he's having an effect on people. I ran into a mutual friend last night, and he was going, "You know, it's breathtaking to witness. It was amazing to watch Casey and it's a heartbreaking - it's beautiful work." So I hear that, and it makes me excited for him, and I think that, you know, he's done some great work. But I think that if ever I heard that sort of stuff, I'd think it's kind of ridiculous. But I think they're probably actually being honest about his work, not just saying it because they thought I wanted to hear it.

MPM: Can you not appreciate your work, even with the benefit of time?
Phoenix: I appreciate the work. I appreciate the process all the time. You know? The end result - I mean, I haven't seen the end result of the last six or seven movies I've done, and I don't think that I would derive any pleasure from it.

MPM: Oh. But do you retain it?
Phoenix: The experience? One hopes not to. I mean, I never even remember what a movie's about. It's always tough. This is Day 1 of press, and I'm going back to Mark [Ruffalo] saying, "What was this movie? What are we doing? Why do we want to do that?"

MPM: Well, watching the film, one feels or assumes that you were suffering this loss of a child, that you may have had this pit in your stomach or a lump in your throat the entire shoot...
Phoenix: And the most horrible - it's one of those things that you don't even know what to say because, again, you don't want to affect how an audience views a movie based on the interview that they read with you, and how you felt about something.

I mean, I can't read about people I love. I can't read about The Beatles. I can't. Because it breaks my heart because I want to believe that, like, there was this unbelievable epiphanous moment before this song was written, and it's just like, "No, we were just, you know, sitting around." You know what I mean? It's, like, heartbreaking.

Like [when you] hear "Mother!" you don't want to think that the producer's going, "John, when you screamed ‘Mother!' this last take, you sounded a little too guttural. Try and ease off a little bit when you scream ‘Mother!' All right, let's go. Roll!" You don't want to hear that.

You want to think that there was one take, and Lennon was just, like, "Mother!!!!" and that thing just came right out, and he's like, "Aw, you know, I just thought it'd be f-cking effective" - or whatever the hell it is. I don't know if that's the right example, because maybe he actually was screaming. I don't know. But I don't want to find out. Do you know what I mean?

And so it's always strange talking to actors... I think that you are affected by things as much as you are affected by anything that you are experiencing all day long. So, you know, if you're at an amusement park all day long, it's gonna affect your night. And then next day, you know, they're the memories. So of course you are affected by your work and the experience of being on set. But I think you're just as affected as the time in between the takes as during the takes.

MPM: Yeah, but do you do the voice of Johnny Cash every now and then just because it sounds so great?
Phoenix: I can't do it. I can't do it anymore. Because it's, like, actually changing your voice. But I - I try all the time.

MPM: Early in the morning, especially?
Phoenix: That's when it's ideal.

MPM: What's so great about Terry George's directing that he evokes such great performances from his actors?
Phoenix: I don't know. I think part of it is in allowing the discovery. I mean, that's what I love. When you think about great movies and you hear those stories from great movies, it's always the things that are unplanned which are best.

Like Luca Brasi in The Godfather and the fact that he was really nervous to be in front of Marlon Brando. So then they shoot him outside afterwards, practicing going to talk to the Godfather, and it becomes this, like, amazing - they're like, "What brilliant f-cking foresight. Just put that character in. He's in the background mumbling to himself!" It's amazing that that should unfold. That's what's exciting.

MPM: Do you believe in the power of film to effect change, or do you think it's more reflective of where society's at?
Phoenix: F-ck if I know, man! I haven't got a f-cking clue. I barely got my shoes on today. Look! They're hanging off. But I think that it depends upon the viewer. You know, film is an incredibly powerful medium. I think that it can effect change. But almost anything can.

Heavily, heavily profound. Too f-cking deep, bro!

MPM: I know you said you don't watch much film. Are you gonna sit through it with the audience for this premiere?
Phoenix: No. I won't see the movie.

MPM: Were there moments growing up when you did enjoy going to the movies?
Phoenix: Not that I can recall.

MPM: Was music a bigger inspiration?
Phoenix: No, but I would much rather - yeah, I would have much rather listened to Abbey Road than seen a movie. But I do like movies - but I don't like movie audiences. I don't like the collective energy in the theatre; it makes me quite uncomfortable. And I don't like being swayed by other people's feelings.

MPM: We Own the Night is slated for release this fall also. Was being reunited with James Gray and Mark Wahlberg reminiscent of your time on The Yards?
Phoenix: It didn't remind me of my time on The Yards, but it was nice to work with him. Again, it can also be difficult to work with people that you know from previous experience, but I love working with those guys, you know, so much that I'd do it again in a second.

MPM: And the orange wristband you've got on?
Phoenix: This is to call for - I think it's asking that a president can serve four terms, trying to get Bush elected again for two more terms. [Laughs] I was told it was an "Impeach Bush" band.

MPM: An "Impeach Bush band?
Phoenix: I think it's just something that Mark made up, and he put it on me.

MPM: Is Mark wearing one as well?
Phoenix: No, he gave me his.

[In reference to the illustration from our Summer issue]
Phoenix: That's good because I'm happy to be next to Cate. And then why are these fellows - why do they get to wear the suits?

MPM: Just because they're in the front and you can see their legs. You've got a suit on, too. See, you've got a little tie on.
Phoenix: It's not tied up. It's open.

MPM: Yeah, because you wouldn't tie up your tie, would you?
Phoenix: [Laughs] Thanks, man. Yeah. -MPM

Image, top: Phoenix in Reservation Road
Photography by Michael Muller / Corbis Outline